[Mulberry-discuss] SMTP problem

[B. Timothy Walsh]

I hope someone is out there, still thinking about Mulberry...

I am a long-term user, but with limited technical expertise. I use Mulberry
as my primary email (IMAP) client on my 3 PC's. On 2 of the 3, it works
without a hitch.

But, on the third, I have a persistent problem with the SMTP account, even
though the setup is identical to the other 2 PCs. One feature of my setup
on all 3 PCs is that, on the SMTP account, I use the option to "hold
messages when added to the queue" so I can double-check the message before
it is really sent.

I am afraid I cannot give a simple description of the problem, but here are
a couple of symptoms:

-if I push enable/disable on the SMTP account, I get a "timed out" while
connecting to server error.

-if I decide to edit a message in the queue, and then hit "send," I get the
error message "File in use elsewhere while appending message to a mailbox"
for the SMTP account.

If I shut down Mulberry and restart, it works OK for the first Email, but
then the problem immediately recurs. I have tried uninstalling and
reinstalling, but to no avail.

I would be grateful for any suggestions. Many thanks!
Tim Walsh

[John C Klensin]

--On Thursday, March 05, 2015 8:34:39 -0500

Post by B. Timothy Walsh
...
I hope someone is out there, still thinking about Mulberry...
I am a long-term user, but with limited technical expertise. I
use Mulberry as my primary email (IMAP) client on my 3 PC's.
On 2 of the 3, it works without a hitch.

This may or may not turn out to be relevant, but does "3 PCs"
imply "Windows" and, if so, what versions are on each machine?
You also didn't mention whether you are still running Mulberry
4.0.8 or if you switched to one of the development versions.

Post by B. Timothy Walsh
But, on the third, I have a persistent problem with the SMTP
account, even though the setup is identical to the other 2
PCs. One feature of my setup on all 3 PCs is that, on the
SMTP account, I use the option to "hold messages when added
to the queue" so I can double-check the message before it is
really sent.
I am afraid I cannot give a simple description of the problem,
-if I push enable/disable on the SMTP account, I get a "timed
out" while connecting to server error.
-if I decide to edit a message in the queue, and then hit
"send," I get the error message "File in use elsewhere while
appending message to a mailbox" for the SMTP account.
If I shut down Mulberry and restart, it works OK for the first
Email, but then the problem immediately recurs. I have tried
uninstalling and reinstalling, but to no avail.
I would be grateful for any suggestions. Many thanks!

I haven't seen the symptoms you are describing, but I generally
don't use "hold messages" on machines running Windows versions
later than XP. I have seen problems (with 4.0.8) vaguely
similar to those you describe that result from changes in
locking mechanisms and file locations (due to changes in the
conventional directory hierarchy) with Windows versions from
Vista and Win 7 forward, with not all of those newer versions
exhibiting the same symptoms.

4.0.8 didn't quite get the change from storing configuration
information in the "Program Files" tree to storing it below
"Documents and Settings\<user name>' right and of course doesn't
know about the much larger rearrangements that occurred later.
So, if I saw those symptoms, I'd start looking for locks that
aren't being reset because they aren't in quite the locations
Mulberry expects, etc. Once identified, it is possible to get
around some of those issues by putting links in the right
places, but others just require getting used to.

My rather sad and pessimistic guess is that Mulberry isn't going
to survive many more Windows versions unless some very serious
maintenance work is done -- not good in combination with a
situation in which most of the work seems to be on Apple, Linux,
or Unix platforms.

best,
john

[B. Timothy Walsh]

Sorry. Yes: Windows7 and Mulberry 4.0.8 on all PCs. Obviously, what annoys
me is that it functions without hiccups on 2 with seemingly identical
configurations.

I saw your note about locks. That feels like a good thought. How might I
search for/locate those?

I can, of course, undo the "hold messages" and see if that resolves the
issue, but I do find it useful.

Many thanks!

Tim


--On Thursday, March 05, 2015 12:57 PM -0500 John C Klensin

Post by John C Klensin
--On Thursday, March 05, 2015 8:34:39 -0500

Post by B. Timothy Walsh
...
I hope someone is out there, still thinking about Mulberry...
I am a long-term user, but with limited technical expertise. I
use Mulberry as my primary email (IMAP) client on my 3 PC's.
On 2 of the 3, it works without a hitch.

This may or may not turn out to be relevant, but does "3 PCs"
imply "Windows" and, if so, what versions are on each machine?
You also didn't mention whether you are still running Mulberry
4.0.8 or if you switched to one of the development versions.

Post by B. Timothy Walsh
But, on the third, I have a persistent problem with the SMTP
account, even though the setup is identical to the other 2
PCs. One feature of my setup on all 3 PCs is that, on the
SMTP account, I use the option to "hold messages when added
to the queue" so I can double-check the message before it is
really sent.
I am afraid I cannot give a simple description of the problem,
-if I push enable/disable on the SMTP account, I get a "timed
out" while connecting to server error.
-if I decide to edit a message in the queue, and then hit
"send," I get the error message "File in use elsewhere while
appending message to a mailbox" for the SMTP account.
If I shut down Mulberry and restart, it works OK for the first
Email, but then the problem immediately recurs. I have tried
uninstalling and reinstalling, but to no avail.
I would be grateful for any suggestions. Many thanks!

I haven't seen the symptoms you are describing, but I generally
don't use "hold messages" on machines running Windows versions
later than XP. I have seen problems (with 4.0.8) vaguely
similar to those you describe that result from changes in
locking mechanisms and file locations (due to changes in the
conventional directory hierarchy) with Windows versions from
Vista and Win 7 forward, with not all of those newer versions
exhibiting the same symptoms.
4.0.8 didn't quite get the change from storing configuration
information in the "Program Files" tree to storing it below
"Documents and Settings\<user name>' right and of course doesn't
know about the much larger rearrangements that occurred later.
So, if I saw those symptoms, I'd start looking for locks that
aren't being reset because they aren't in quite the locations
Mulberry expects, etc. Once identified, it is possible to get
around some of those issues by putting links in the right
places, but others just require getting used to.
My rather sad and pessimistic guess is that Mulberry isn't going
to survive many more Windows versions unless some very serious
maintenance work is done -- not good in combination with a
situation in which most of the work seems to be on Apple, Linux,
or Unix platforms.
best,
john

[m***@crop.inbox5.com]

--On 3/5/15 12:57 PM -0500 klensin+***@jck.com wrote:


You also didn't mention whether you are still running Mulberry
4.0.8 or if you switched to one of the development versions.

Do you know the locations of these development versions?
Are any recommended as better, more stable?


My rather sad and pessimistic guess is that Mulberry isn't going
to survive many more Windows versions unless some very serious
maintenance work is done -- not good in combination with a
situation in which most of the work seems to be on Apple, Linux,
or Unix platforms.

Are you saying Mulberry's survival rate on Apple, Unix is as bad as Windows?

best,
john


4.0.8 running well on a Mac OS 10.6.8. (Yeah, a little slow on updating that, but
then again how many important applications, like Mulberry, would be skewed by
updating?)


Thanks,
mu

[Quanah Gibson-Mount]

Someone posted a link to newer Windows builds of mulberry a while back,
which I'm running. Unfortunately, it does have a lot of problems -- routine
crashing, corruption of the outgoing smtp mailboxes, etc. Especially if
the outgoing mail has attachments. As much as I love mulberry, it's about
to the point where I can no longer use it.

The newer mac builds also have loads of issues, and depend on the old
Carbon bits, IIRC, which Apple will be removing in upcoming OSX, so it is
pretty much dead as well, unless someone wants to rewrite the entire UI.

--Quanah

Post by John C Klensin
You also didn't mention whether you are still running Mulberry
4.0.8 or if you switched to one of the development versions.
Do you know the locations of these development versions?
Are any recommended as better, more stable?
My rather sad and pessimistic guess is that Mulberry isn't going
to survive many more Windows versions unless some very serious
maintenance work is done -- not good in combination with a
situation in which most of the work seems to be on Apple, Linux,
or Unix platforms.
Are you saying Mulberry's survival rate on Apple, Unix is as bad as Windows?
best,
john
4.0.8 running well on a Mac OS 10.6.8. (Yeah, a little slow on updating
that, but then again how many important applications, like Mulberry,
would be skewed by updating?)
Thanks,
mu

[Brian Reid]

Post by m***@crop.inbox5.com
Are you saying Mulberry's survival rate on Apple, Unix is as bad as Windows?

I use Mac and Unix.
I'm trying to transition to Thunderbird while Mulberry still works. I
don't want to wake up one morning to discover that I can't read my email
without learning a new client.

There are still a number of things that Mulberry can do that Thunderbird
cannot, so I keep Mulberry active. But the end is near.

[Devin Reade]

I've seen SMTP send queue problems under Linux RHEL as well. Typically
if the server isn't available, it won't retry, at least until I send
another message.

For windows, you might want to ensure that your local firewall is not
blocking *outbound* SMTP connections. I've seen that hit various users.
It could also explain the difference between the two working machines
and one non-working machine.

Post by Brian Reid
I use Mac and Unix.
I'm trying to transition to Thunderbird while Mulberry still works. I
don't want to wake up one morning to discover that I can't read my email
without learning a new client.
There are still a number of things that Mulberry can do that Thunderbird
cannot, so I keep Mulberry active. But the end is near.

If anyone is contemplating retiring Mulberry, you may want to continue
to at least keep subscribed to this list to keep an ear out for things.
It's not as if it's a high-traffic list.

I'm in the *very* early stages of trying to do a Qt-based
Mulberry-influenced
variant. My focus is on Linux, OpenBSD, and portability. In other words,
I intend for it to work under Mac/Windows as well, although I don't tend to
deal on those platforms.

Before you get your hopes up, this is in the realm of "the cobbler's
children have no shoes". That is, I develop software for a living
but this is an unpaid project. No, that is not a solicitation, but
it means that development time takes a back seat to family and $work.
And both of those take up most hours in my day.

No timelines, even wild-ass guesses, are available at the moment,
so please don't ask. I can't even promise that it will ever be
anything but vapourware.

My motivation is driven by the concerns already mentioned by
others, but also the fact that RHEL as stopped supporting 32-bit
installs. Which means that for me, the end-of-live of RHEL6 is
end-of-life for a 32-bit Mulberry (at least on one of my major
platforms).

Devin

[Arnold DeRoy]

Post by Devin Reade
I've seen SMTP send queue problems under Linux RHEL as well. Typically
if the server isn't available, it won't retry, at least until I send
another message.

----------------------

If the Preferences are the close, rename the current Preference file on
the machine not working properly and copy of the preference from the
working machine over? This may help eliminate possible configuration
issues.

I did post a while back how to copy preferences between machines, search
the archives. Can check when I get home as to procedure.

[B. Timothy Walsh]

Thanks. But, I've done just what you suggest. Seems to work briefly, but
problem recurs. Suggesting it's some problem other than what's in the prefs
file, apparently.


--On Thursday, March 05, 2015 3:13 PM -0500 Arnold DeRoy

Post by Arnold DeRoy

Post by Devin Reade
I've seen SMTP send queue problems under Linux RHEL as well. Typically
if the server isn't available, it won't retry, at least until I send
another message.

----------------------
If the Preferences are the close, rename the current Preference file on
the machine not working properly and copy of the preference from the
working machine over? This may help eliminate possible configuration
issues.
I did post a while back how to copy preferences between machines, search
the archives. Can check when I get home as to procedure.

[Gleason]

Devin,

Post by Devin Reade
I'm in the *very* early stages of trying to do a Qt-based
Mulberry-influenced
variant. My focus is on Linux, OpenBSD, and portability. In other words,
I intend for it to work under Mac/Windows as well, although I don't tend to
deal on those platforms.

Mulberry-influenced. Realizing how many years it takes to put
together a decent email client even if you aren't a distracted
cobbler. Somewhere over 10 at least, judging by the performance of
others.

If there is any way at all to rescue the time put into Mulberry...

Post by Devin Reade
Before you get your hopes up, this is in the realm of "the cobbler's
children have no shoes". That is, I develop software for a living
but this is an unpaid project. No, that is not a solicitation, but
it means that development time takes a back seat to family and $work.
And both of those take up most hours in my day.
No timelines, even wild-ass guesses, are available at the moment,
so please don't ask. I can't even promise that it will ever be
anything but vapourware.
My motivation is driven by the concerns already mentioned by
others, but also the fact that RHEL as stopped supporting 32-bit
installs. Which means that for me, the end-of-live of RHEL6 is
end-of-life for a 32-bit Mulberry (at least on one of my major
platforms).
Devin

[Devin Reade]

Post by Gleason
Mulberry-influenced.

In other words, I like Mulberry more-or-less the way it is. There
is much I don't like about other mail clients.

Post by Gleason
Realizing how many years it takes to put
together a decent email client even if you aren't a distracted
cobbler. Somewhere over 10 at least, judging by the performance of
others.
If there is any way at all to rescue the time put into Mulberry...

I'm hoping to steal as much code as possible. My concerns with
the existing UI tool chain is how much of it continues to be
supported on various platforms. My concern with the existing
code are the comments made quite a while back about the amount
of work to remove 32-bit assumptions.

But yes, it's daunting.

Devin

[B. Timothy Walsh]

Thanks!
I don't believe that's it. Two reasons:
-it typically works for the first outgoing email then starts having
problems;
-and, though it may not be quite relevant to your thought, Mulberry on my
laptop, going through the same router to my ISP, works without a hitch.
Do let me know if these arguments are not persuasive.

Post by Devin Reade
I've seen SMTP send queue problems under Linux RHEL as well. Typically
if the server isn't available, it won't retry, at least until I send
another message.
For windows, you might want to ensure that your local firewall is not
blocking *outbound* SMTP connections. I've seen that hit various users.
It could also explain the difference between the two working machines
and one non-working machine.
--On Thursday, March 05, 2015 11:00:40 AM -0800 Brian Reid

Post by Brian Reid
I use Mac and Unix.
I'm trying to transition to Thunderbird while Mulberry still works. I
don't want to wake up one morning to discover that I can't read my email
without learning a new client.
There are still a number of things that Mulberry can do that Thunderbird
cannot, so I keep Mulberry active. But the end is near.

If anyone is contemplating retiring Mulberry, you may want to continue
to at least keep subscribed to this list to keep an ear out for things.
It's not as if it's a high-traffic list.
I'm in the *very* early stages of trying to do a Qt-based
Mulberry-influenced
variant. My focus is on Linux, OpenBSD, and portability. In other words,
I intend for it to work under Mac/Windows as well, although I don't tend
to deal on those platforms.
Before you get your hopes up, this is in the realm of "the cobbler's
children have no shoes". That is, I develop software for a living
but this is an unpaid project. No, that is not a solicitation, but
it means that development time takes a back seat to family and $work.
And both of those take up most hours in my day.
No timelines, even wild-ass guesses, are available at the moment,
so please don't ask. I can't even promise that it will ever be
anything but vapourware.
My motivation is driven by the concerns already mentioned by
others, but also the fact that RHEL as stopped supporting 32-bit
installs. Which means that for me, the end-of-live of RHEL6 is
end-of-life for a 32-bit Mulberry (at least on one of my major
platforms).
Devin

[B. Timothy Walsh]

I *may* have solved it:

Reading between the lines of some responses, I guessed that something was
amiss in the windows \Users\...Mulberry directory. So, I deleted that
directory completely, and uninstalled and re-installed Mulberry. I
restarted using a preferences file from one of my other PC's. At least on
brief testing, SMTP seems to be working well.

I'll post a note if problems recur. In the meantime, appreciate all the
suggestions.

--On Thursday, March 05, 2015 4:37 PM -0500 "B. Timothy Walsh"

Post by B. Timothy Walsh
Thanks!
-it typically works for the first outgoing email then starts having
problems;
-and, though it may not be quite relevant to your thought, Mulberry on my
laptop, going through the same router to my ISP, works without a hitch.
Do let me know if these arguments are not persuasive.

Post by Devin Reade
I've seen SMTP send queue problems under Linux RHEL as well. Typically
if the server isn't available, it won't retry, at least until I send
another message.
For windows, you might want to ensure that your local firewall is not
blocking *outbound* SMTP connections. I've seen that hit various users.
It could also explain the difference between the two working machines
and one non-working machine.
--On Thursday, March 05, 2015 11:00:40 AM -0800 Brian Reid

Post by Brian Reid
I use Mac and Unix.
I'm trying to transition to Thunderbird while Mulberry still works. I
don't want to wake up one morning to discover that I can't read my email
without learning a new client.
There are still a number of things that Mulberry can do that Thunderbird
cannot, so I keep Mulberry active. But the end is near.

If anyone is contemplating retiring Mulberry, you may want to continue
to at least keep subscribed to this list to keep an ear out for things.
It's not as if it's a high-traffic list.
I'm in the *very* early stages of trying to do a Qt-based
Mulberry-influenced
variant. My focus is on Linux, OpenBSD, and portability. In other
words, I intend for it to work under Mac/Windows as well, although I
don't tend to deal on those platforms.
Before you get your hopes up, this is in the realm of "the cobbler's
children have no shoes". That is, I develop software for a living
but this is an unpaid project. No, that is not a solicitation, but
it means that development time takes a back seat to family and $work.
And both of those take up most hours in my day.
No timelines, even wild-ass guesses, are available at the moment,
so please don't ask. I can't even promise that it will ever be
anything but vapourware.
My motivation is driven by the concerns already mentioned by
others, but also the fact that RHEL as stopped supporting 32-bit
installs. Which means that for me, the end-of-live of RHEL6 is
end-of-life for a 32-bit Mulberry (at least on one of my major
platforms).
Devin

[Su Wadlow]

Post by Devin Reade
My motivation is driven by the concerns already mentioned by
others, but also the fact that RHEL as stopped supporting 32-bit
installs. Which means that for me, the end-of-live of RHEL6 is
end-of-life for a 32-bit Mulberry (at least on one of my major
platforms).

I've been running Mulberry on 64-bit Linux for several years --
OpenSuSE 10.x and 11.x for a while and now Ubuntu, both 12.04 LTS
and 14.04 LTS. Works just fine, as long as I remember to install
32-bit (legacy) libraries, and work through the rest of the
dependencies.