[Mulberry-discuss] Is anybody working on Mulberry now?

Post by Paul Schmehl
I have a log file of errors generated by Mulberry when trying to
connect to, retrieve from and move emails from my ISP. They use
IncrediMail, which has to be the worst IMAP server on the planet. It
literally crashes Mulberry when you get over 25 emails in your inbox.
I'm in the process of moving over to gmail, because my ISP email is
virtually unusable. I've been using Mulberry for years now, and no
IMAP server I've ever used has been so indescribably horrible.

I continue to watch for a suitable replacement. I saw a candidate the
other day mentioned on the dovecot mailing list that I want to try.
(Dovecot is the IMAP server of choice on Linux.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojit%C3%A1

Other possibilities:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_email_clients

Things I need for my work flow include multiple identities and multiple
servers. I'd love to see Mulberry's hierarchical inherited configuration
but I doubt other clients have that.

Gleason

2017-12-18 19:56:58 UTC

Kenneth,

Post by Kenneth Porter

It is getting harder to find anything new. I see this one is imap only.

Post by Kenneth Porter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_email_clients
Things I need for my work flow include multiple identities and multiple
servers. I'd love to see Mulberry's hierarchical inherited configuration
but I doubt other clients have that.

Only Mulberry, I bet.

--
Gleason

Gleason

2017-12-18 20:16:09 UTC

Gleason,

Of course anything new would not have the years of development behind it
that it takes to produce a well envisioned and implemented email client.

What you want is a client that has been around for years and has had frequent updates
throughout that time. I know of only two
Thunderbird
The Bat
Others?

In spite of its diminutive namesake, The Bat is my choice.

Kenneth,

Post by Kenneth Porter

It is getting harder to find anything new. I see this one is imap only.

Only Mulberry, I bet.

--
Gleason
--
Gleason

Brian Reid

2017-12-18 22:20:26 UTC

I use Thunderbird now and it is awful, terrible, and bad. I long so much
for Mulberry.

Re: [Mulberry-discuss] Is anybody working on Mulberry now? Gleason,
Of course anything new would not have the years of development behind it
that it takes to produce a well envisioned and implemented email client.
What you want is a client that has been around for years and has had frequent updates
throughout that time. Â I know of only two
Thunderbird
The Bat
Others?
In spite of its diminutive namesake, The Bat is my choice.
Kenneth,

Post by Kenneth Porter

I continue to watch for a suitable replacement. I saw a candidate the
other day mentioned on the dovecot mailing list that I want to try.
(Dovecot is the IMAP server of choice on Linux.)

*> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojit%C3%A1
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojit%C3%A1>
It is getting harder to find anything new. Â I see this one is imap only.
*> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_email_clients
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_email_clients>
*> Things I need for my work flow include multiple identities and multiple

Post by Kenneth Porter
servers. I'd love to see Mulberry's hierarchical inherited configuration
but I doubt other clients have that.

*Only Mulberry, I bet.
/--
Gleason/
/--
Gleason /

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 14:49:39 UTC

Post by Brian Reid
I use Thunderbird now and it is awful, terrible, and bad. I long so much
for Mulberry.

I've been using Thunderbird ever since I can remember. I've tried all of
the alternatives over the years, but Thunderbird is by far the best,
both as an IMAP client, and for one you want to be able to customize.

Gleason

2017-12-19 15:20:50 UTC

Tanstaafl,

Post by Brian Reid
I use Thunderbird now and it is awful, terrible, and bad. I long so much
for Mulberry.

Choosing an email client is subjective and personal. It also depends on your needs.
I always found Thunderbird severely lacking in features. But that is changing with the latest
Daily Build. I still find the interface clunky. And recent versions of The Bat make it easy
to assign a default message format and return address to an entry in the address book. That without
having the return address attached to any email account in The Bat setup. Important for me.

Superior quality from a single developer? There comes a point where a project is beyond
the capability of a single person, in terms of the time they can commit if nothing else. Since it
generally takes 10 years or so for email clients to mature, I suspect they fall into that category.

I can imagine what the Mulberry code file must look like. Cyrus accrues no blame for being
unable to continue with it.

One advantage Thunderbird has as a team effort is that work on it will not cease because a
single developer couldn't manage it any longer. The Bat shares that advantage too.

--
Gleason

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 19:07:54 UTC

Post by Gleason
I always found Thunderbird severely lacking in features.

I am not aware of any features it is lacking in.

Care to elaborate?

Post by Gleason
But that is changing with the latest Daily Build.

Very very few new features have been/are being introduced in new builds
for the last few years, mostly bug fixes.

What new features do you mean?

Post by Gleason
I still find the interface clunky.

I think it is very well laid out and easy to use, but I do heavily
customize it (one reason I have always like Mozilla products).

Post by Gleason
And recent versions of The Bat make it easy to assign a default
message format

Been able to do this in TB since... forever?

Post by Gleason
and return address to an entry in the
address book.

? Not sure what you mean. An Address Book entry has one or more email
addresses associated with it...

Post by Gleason
That without having the return address attached to any email account
in The Bat setup. Important for me.

Again, not sure what you are talking about so can't really decide if
this is something TB can do, or maybe it is something I would never use
so can't even picture what you mean....

Gleason

2017-12-19 19:33:13 UTC

Tanstaafl,

As I say, email client support is subjective.

Post by Gleason
I always found Thunderbird severely lacking in features.

I am not aware of any features it is lacking in.

So, none of the features it has lacked matter to you. Like the ability to customize visible columns
in the message list, separately for each folder, with a large selection of choices.

And the ability to filter outgoing messages.

Recent Thunderbird Daily versions have repaired those lacks though. I'm pretty sure that
Thunderbird release version still does not have outgoing message filters.

Post by Tanstaafl
Care to elaborate?

Post by Gleason
But that is changing with the latest Daily Build.

Very very few new features have been/are being introduced in new builds
for the last few years, mostly bug fixes.
What new features do you mean?

Post by Gleason
I still find the interface clunky.

I think it is very well laid out and easy to use, but I do heavily
customize it (one reason I have always like Mozilla products).

My complaint about plugins is that they tend to loose support in newer versions, while
plugin authors often aren't interested in updating their product. Maybe that doesn't happen
as often in release versions.

Post by Gleason
And recent versions of The Bat make it easy to assign a default
message format

Been able to do this in TB since... forever?

Post by Gleason
and return address to an entry in the
address book.

? Not sure what you mean. An Address Book entry has one or more email
addresses associated with it...

My reply address can be different depending on the person I am writing to.

Post by Gleason
That without having the return address attached to any email account
in The Bat setup. Important for me.

Again, not sure what you are talking about so can't really decide if
this is something TB can do, or maybe it is something I would never use
so can't even picture what you mean....

But those reply to addresses need not be tied to a specific account. For instance, I have one
main email address at Fastmail, which is associated with my fastmail account in The Bat setup.
But Fastmail allows a generous supply of aliases. I can use these aliases in replies to
specific correspondents without The Bat knowing anything else about them other than they
are specified as a return address for certain correspondents.

--
Gleason

Brian Reid

2017-12-19 19:47:36 UTC

I use Thunderbird 52.5.0 with a fast client running macOS 10.13.3 and a
fast server running Dovecot 2.2.33.
It freezes up (infinite beach ball) several times a day, requiring force
quit and relaunch.
It takes 10-20 minutes to start up when I launch it, except when I'm
running it from a hotel room where it takes an hour.
Sometimes it fails to recognize new mail unless I quit and restart (and
endure the 10-20 minute delay again).
Its searching ability is so slow that sometimes I start a search and go
to bed and the search hasn't finished by morning.
(on mailboxes containing less than 6000 messages).
It is awful.
Also I have never figured out its message-composition features. On
almost every message I send, it changes font in the middle of a word
here and there. I'm sure there is some logic to how it does that, but
I've never managed to figure it out.

I can't wait to try something else. I have Pine on a nearby machine and
usually use that for searching and folder mongering.

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 20:24:35 UTC

On Tue Dec 19 2017 14:47:36 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Brian Reid

Post by Brian Reid
I use Thunderbird 52.5.0 with a fast client running macOS 10.13.3 and
a fast server running Dovecot 2.2.33.
It freezes up (infinite beach ball) several times a day, requiring
force quit and relaunch.

All this means is there is something wrong with your TB installation.
Either you have a bad Addon (does it happen when starting with Addons
Disabled?), or something seriously borked in your profile (create a
fresh new profile), or possibly you have a lot of online Calendars with
lots of items on them (that is one scenario that can cause serious
performance problems).

Post by Brian Reid
It takes 10-20 minutes to start up when I launch it,

Yup, something seriously wrong. This is simply not a general Thunderbird
problem.

Post by Brian Reid
Its searching ability is so slow that sometimes I start a search and
go to bed and the search hasn't finished by morning. (on mailboxes
containing less than 6000 messages).

Are you doing Body searches on unindexed IMAP stores? No wonder...

Post by Brian Reid
It is awful.

Sounds like it, but the problem is NOT 'Thunderbird' in the generic
sense, there is definitely something wrong that is most likely fixable.

Post by Brian Reid
Also I have never figured out its message-composition features. On
almost every message I send, it changes font in the middle of a word
here and there. I'm sure there is some logic to how it does that, but
I've never managed to figure it out.

This (the Composer) is one of the biggest bugs it has had for a long
time. The good news, many of these most 'in your face' ones have been
recently fixed (some available now, others not until the next release,
version 59, coming in a month or two).

The problem you're experiencing has to do with getting outside the
'Body' tags by clicking too far down into the signature section.

But this problem is easily avoidable (I know because I NEVER encounter
it)... bottom line... either inline post (don't top-post, and quote only
the relevant part of the message, by simply highlighting it before
clicking Reply), or if you are going to top-post, make sure there are
blank spaces between your starting text and the signature.

Post by Brian Reid
I can't wait to try something else. I have Pine on a nearby machine and
usually use that for searching and folder mongering.

I never need to Body search, so searching is blazingly fast on my IMAP
folders with 20-50,000 messages.

If I wanted/needed Body search capability, I'd use SOLR with my Dovecot
server, but I don't need it, so never took the time to figure out
getting it installed and running.

Brian Reid

2017-12-19 21:03:25 UTC

Like I said, there is something seriously wrong with my TB installation.
Absent any better diagnosis, that wrong thing is TB. I do not use
addons, I do not use calendars, and I have made very few changes to the
out-of-the-box profile. My TB got to be what it is by my carefully
following all of the TB documentation. About 2 years ago I erased every
artifact of Thunderbird from my computer and started over again with a
fresh install and most settings at factory default. I experienced more
or less the same symptoms.

It doesn't actually matter to me whether a problem is a problem in code
or in documentation. Together they are what I have to work with, and if
following the documentation when installing the code yields a buggy
instance, then that is just as much a bug as some blunder in the
underlying code.

I'm not stupid. I have written a lot of software. I am good at reading
documentation and at following instructions. I have not made any changes
to Thunderbird other than through its HTML configuration interface. I
have used email for many years, and I have used many email clients. If I
can't get Thunderbird to behave, then the problem is with Thunderbird
and not with me. Whether the Thunderbird problem is in its code or its
documentation is an irrelevant nuance.

Post by Tanstaafl
On Tue Dec 19 2017 14:47:36 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Brian Reid

Post by Brian Reid
It takes 10-20 minutes to start up when I launch it,

Yup, something seriously wrong. This is simply not a general Thunderbird
problem.

Post by Brian Reid
Its searching ability is so slow that sometimes I start a search and
go to bed and the search hasn't finished by morning. (on mailboxes
containing less than 6000 messages).

Are you doing Body searches on unindexed IMAP stores? No wonder...

Post by Brian Reid
It is awful.

Sounds like it, but the problem is NOT 'Thunderbird' in the generic
sense, there is definitely something wrong that is most likely fixable.

This (the Composer) is one of the biggest bugs it has had for a long
time. The good news, many of these most 'in your face' ones have been
recently fixed (some available now, others not until the next release,
version 59, coming in a month or two).
The problem you're experiencing has to do with getting outside the
'Body' tags by clicking too far down into the signature section.
But this problem is easily avoidable (I know because I NEVER encounter
it)... bottom line... either inline post (don't top-post, and quote only
the relevant part of the message, by simply highlighting it before
clicking Reply), or if you are going to top-post, make sure there are
blank spaces between your starting text and the signature.

Post by Brian Reid
I can't wait to try something else. I have Pine on a nearby machine and
usually use that for searching and folder mongering.

I never need to Body search, so searching is blazingly fast on my IMAP
folders with 20-50,000 messages.
If I wanted/needed Body search capability, I'd use SOLR with my Dovecot
server, but I don't need it, so never took the time to figure out
getting it installed and running.

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 21:20:59 UTC

On Tue Dec 19 2017 16:03:25 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Brian Reid

Post by Brian Reid
Like I said, there is something seriously wrong with my TB installation.

No, your original post was purely an anti Thunderbird rant, claiming
that Thunderbird itself was the problem.

If that isn't what you meant, you have a long way to go to learn how to
express yourself in writing.

Post by Brian Reid
Absent any better diagnosis, that wrong thing is TB.

The fact that MILLIONS of people use Thunderbird every day without such
issues isn't a clue for you?

Post by Brian Reid
I do not use addons, I do not use calendars, and I have made very few
changes to the out-of-the-box profile. My TB got to be what it is by
my carefully following all of the TB documentation. About 2 years ago
I erased every artifact of Thunderbird from my computer and started
over again with a fresh install and most settings at factory default.
I experienced more or less the same symptoms.

Then something you are doing is causing your problem.

But of course, if you choose to blindly reject such an idea and the
mountain of evidence in support of the fact that it isn't a generic
Thunderbird problem, then by all means, go find another email client to
rant about.

Gleason

2017-12-19 21:26:13 UTC

Tanstaafl,

Post by Tanstaafl
On Tue Dec 19 2017 16:03:25 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Brian Reid

Post by Brian Reid
Like I said, there is something seriously wrong with my TB installation.

No, your original post was purely an anti Thunderbird rant, claiming
that Thunderbird itself was the problem.
If that isn't what you meant, you have a long way to go to learn how to
express yourself in writing.

Post by Brian Reid
Absent any better diagnosis, that wrong thing is TB.

The fact that MILLIONS of people use Thunderbird every day without such
issues isn't a clue for you?

Then something you are doing is causing your problem.
But of course, if you choose to blindly reject such an idea and the
mountain of evidence in support of the fact that it isn't a generic
Thunderbird problem, then by all means, go find another email client to
rant about.

Sounds like a problem respecting the intelligence and experience of other people.

--
Gleason

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 21:39:51 UTC

On Tue Dec 19 2017 16:26:13 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Gleason

Post by Tanstaafl
But of course, if you choose to blindly reject such an idea and the
mountain of evidence in support of the fact that it isn't a generic
Thunderbird problem, then by all means, go find another email client to
rant about.

Sounds like a problem respecting the intelligence and experience of other people.

What? Ignoring the fact that millions of others have no problems like
the OP? Yeah, I guess you could say that...

Respect, on the individual level, must be earned. When someone makes
false claims that a piece of software is at fault when it isn't, yeah, I
don't have any respect for such claims or the one making them.

Paul Schmehl

2017-12-19 21:47:30 UTC

And you, of course, are the arbiter of what is false and what is not.

What is the point of this crap? It has nothing to do with Mulberry and only
reveals what a pompous ass you are.

--On December 19, 2017 at 4:39:51 PM -0500 Tanstaafl

Post by Tanstaafl
On Tue Dec 19 2017 16:26:13 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Gleason

Sounds like a problem respecting the intelligence and experience of other people.

What? Ignoring the fact that millions of others have no problems like
the OP? Yeah, I guess you could say that...
Respect, on the individual level, must be earned. When someone makes
false claims that a piece of software is at fault when it isn't, yeah, I
don't have any respect for such claims or the one making them.

Paul Schmehl, Retired
As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions
are my own and not those of my employer.
*******************************************
"It is as useless to argue with those who have
renounced the use of reason as to administer
medication to the dead." Thomas Jefferson
"There are some ideas so wrong that only a very
intelligent person could believe in them." George Orwell

Tanstaafl

2017-12-20 13:52:55 UTC

On Tue Dec 19 2017 16:47:30 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Paul

Post by Paul Schmehl
And you, of course, are the arbiter of what is false and what is not.

Of course.

Post by Paul Schmehl
What is the point of this crap?

Ok, so you refer to the act of differentiating truth from fiction as
'crap'. Got it.

Post by Paul Schmehl
It has nothing to do with Mulberry

Neither did the OPs rant about TB.

Post by Paul Schmehl
and only reveals what a pompous ass you are.

Whatever...

Oh, and thanks for ceasing CC'ing me directly...

, , , , ,

2017-12-20 15:29:15 UTC

--On Wednesday, December 20, 2017 8:52 AM -0500 Tanstaafl

Post by Tanstaafl
On Tue Dec 19 2017 16:47:30 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Paul

Post by Paul Schmehl
And you, of course, are the arbiter of what is false and what is not.

Of course.

Post by Paul Schmehl
What is the point of this crap?

Ok, so you refer to the act of differentiating truth from fiction as
'crap'. Got it.

Post by Paul Schmehl
It has nothing to do with Mulberry

Neither did the OPs rant about TB.

Post by Paul Schmehl
and only reveals what a pompous ass you are.

Whatever...
Oh, and thanks for ceasing CC'ing me directly...

It probably has something to do with how this list is configured, but all
of my test email clients
put the person's direct email address in the To box rather than the list
address. Except for
Mulberry which allows me to choose who to reply to and how much to quote.
Once again,
I am reminded what a fine client Mulberry is.

Don't ever replace it with a collection of your own scratchings, Ken.

--
Gleason

Tanstaafl

2017-12-20 16:08:05 UTC

Post by , , , , ,
It probably has something to do with how this list is configured,
but all of my test email clients put the person's direct email
address in the To box rather than the list address. Except for
Mulberry which allows me to choose who to reply to and how much to
quote. Once again, I am reminded what a fine client Mulberry is.

Really? Look above at the mess it makes with quote attribution...

The list is properly configured with list headers, which is what any
sane client should use to determine List Replies with a single click.

As to what to quote - in TB, all you do is select/highlight what you
want to quote before replying. Can't get any simpler than that.

Gleason

2017-12-20 16:27:48 UTC

Tanstaafl,

Yet every single one of them does it wrong in my tests here
thunderbird
postbox
pegasus
mailbird
the bat
others...

And other mailing lists I receive do not have that problem.

Note that Pegasus does allow a choice of quote or not, and does allow you to choose
reply address. But no box is prechecked, and if you close the window without choosing,
yup, the default is direct address to the the person.

Post by Tanstaafl
As to what to quote - in TB, all you do is select/highlight what you
want to quote before replying. Can't get any simpler than that.

You really are a Thunderbird evangelist aren't you? Why are you here? Hoping to pick
up a few new Thunderbird users? Why would you care?

--
Gleason

Tanstaafl

2017-12-20 16:58:14 UTC

Post by Tanstaafl
The list is properly configured with list headers, which is what any
sane client should use to determine List Replies with a single click.

Yet every single one of them does it wrong in my tests here
thunderbird

As I said, it works perfectly for me in TB, so not sure what are you
doing wrong - probably not using the Smart Reply button (or CTRL+SHIFT+L
for Reply to List, which does nothing if there are no List headers).

Post by Gleason
Note that Pegasus does allow a choice of quote or not, and does
allow you to choose reply address. But no box is prechecked, and if
you close the window without choosing, yup, the default is direct
address to the the person.

TB has a 'Smart Reply' button that automatically replies to list when
list headers are present - if not, then it replies to the sender, or
whatever is in the 'Reply-To' field, if non-empty.

Post by Tanstaafl
As to what to quote - in TB, all you do is select/highlight what you
want to quote before replying. Can't get any simpler than that.

You really are a Thunderbird evangelist aren't you?

Nope, just a happy end user pointing out an excellent and very simple
feature that most other clients don't have.

Post by Gleason
Why are you here?

Signed up to the list a long time ago when researching alternatives to
TB when I thought it might die when Mozilla all but abandoned it
(happily, it is doing better than ever since then).

Hoping to pick up a few new Thunderbird users? Why would you

Post by Gleason
care?

I don't... not sure why you seem to care so much.

Gleason

2017-12-20 17:16:05 UTC

Tanstaafl,

Post by Tanstaafl
The list is properly configured with list headers, which is what any
sane client should use to determine List Replies with a single click.

Yet every single one of them does it wrong in my tests here
thunderbird

No. And I said, this is not only Thunderbird.

TB has a 'Smart Reply' button that automatically replies to list when
list headers are present - if not, then it replies to the sender, or
whatever is in the 'Reply-To' field, if non-empty.

Post by Tanstaafl
As to what to quote - in TB, all you do is select/highlight what you
want to quote before replying. Can't get any simpler than that.

You really are a Thunderbird evangelist aren't you?

Nope, just a happy end user pointing out an excellent and very simple
feature that most other clients don't have.

Post by Gleason
Why are you here?

Signed up to the list a long time ago when researching alternatives to
TB when I thought it might die when Mozilla all but abandoned it
(happily, it is doing better than ever since then).
Hoping to pick up a few new Thunderbird users? Why would you

Post by Gleason
care?

I don't... not sure why you seem to care so much.

Then maybe you could give up on the evangelism. Email clients being a subjective, very
personal choice, after all.

Why do I care? Because it looks to me like the demise of Mulberry was a great loss. And high
quality email clients are important to me. I long ago gave up on hoping for a miracle though.

The truth is that online communication has left email clients behind. Too difficult to do well,
and too difficult to configure if done well. Users and programmers have agreed there
are less troublesome ways. A web interface with no user setup was preferred. And this is the age
of the mobile device, with again, very simple interface and minimal setup.

I am a dinosaur. I refuse to carry a cell phone or use webmail.

--
Gleason

Tanstaafl

2017-12-20 19:09:34 UTC

Post by Tanstaafl
As I said, it works perfectly for me in TB, so not sure what are you
doing wrong - probably not using the Smart Reply button (or CTRL+SHIFT+L
for Reply to List, which does nothing if there are no List headers).

No.

No... what? You were using the Smart Reply button (which would have
defaulted to 'Reply List')? Or you were using CTRL+SHIFT+L? OR you tried
both?

Post by Gleason
And I said, this is not only Thunderbird.

TB is the only mail client I have access to that has proper
Reply-To-List capability, and as I said, it works perfectly for me on
this list, and all others I participate in that have list headers
(dozens, but none of the Yahoo groups).

Post by Gleason
Then maybe you could give up on the evangelism.

As I said, I'm not evangelizing, just pointing out facts.

Paul Schmehl

2017-12-20 19:15:27 UTC

No, you are evangelizing. It's clear you don't see that, but it's obvious
to an uninvolved observer. You have now dominated this list with a
meaningless discussion that no one cares about. This is the
Mulberry-discuss list, not the Thunderbird-discuss list.

Everyone gets that you are infatuated with Thunderbird and think it is
perfect.

Enough already. I didn't join this list to be hammered with crap about
other email clients.

--On December 20, 2017 at 2:09:34 PM -0500 Tanstaafl

No.

No... what? You were using the Smart Reply button (which would have
defaulted to 'Reply List')? Or you were using CTRL+SHIFT+L? OR you tried
both?

Post by Gleason
And I said, this is not only Thunderbird.

Post by Gleason
Then maybe you could give up on the evangelism.

As I said, I'm not evangelizing, just pointing out facts.

Steve Burling

2017-12-20 19:27:11 UTC

Post by Paul Schmehl
No, you are evangelizing. It's clear you don't see that, but it's
obvious to an uninvolved observer. You have now dominated this list
with a meaningless discussion that no one cares about. This is the
Mulberry-discuss list, not the Thunderbird-discuss list.
Everyone gets that you are infatuated with Thunderbird and think it is
perfect.
Enough already. I didn't join this list to be hammered with crap about
other email clients.

+1

Actually, +10. Do us all a favor, and have a nice big cup of STFU.
<http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/998529-shut-the-fuck-up--2>

-- Steve

Tanstaafl

2017-12-20 20:04:08 UTC

Post by Steve Burling

Post by Paul Schmehl
Enough already. I didn't join this list to be hammered with crap about
other email clients.

+1
Actually, +10. Do us all a favor, and have a nice big cup of STFU.

No thanks, I'm fine, but by all means, knock yourself out.

Gleason

2017-12-20 20:09:11 UTC

Tanstaafl,

Post by Steve Burling

Post by Paul Schmehl
Enough already. I didn't join this list to be hammered with crap about
other email clients.

+1
Actually, +10. Do us all a favor, and have a nice big cup of STFU.

No thanks, I'm fine, but by all means, knock yourself out.

Don't feed the trolls.
Never wrestle with a pig. The pig loves it, and you simply get all muddy.

--
Gleason

Tanstaafl

2017-12-20 20:00:42 UTC

Post by Paul Schmehl
No, you are evangelizing.

No, I'm not.

Post by Paul Schmehl
It's clear you don't see that, but it's obvious to an uninvolved
observer.

That is hilarious, seeing as you are not (an uninvolved observer)...

It's clear you don't see the difference between evangelizing and
correcting false information, but that's not my problem...

Post by Paul Schmehl
You have now dominated this list

Dominated the list? The list that has been virtually dead (like
Mulberry) for months, then when there is some traffic, someone
cluelessly rants about how bad TB is.

Whats to dominate?

Post by Paul Schmehl
with a meaningless discussion

Depends - if someone learns something new, is it meaningless?

Of course, you actually have to be open to that...

Post by Paul Schmehl
that no one cares about.

So... I think even Mulberry has a delete button?

Post by Paul Schmehl
This is the Mulberry-discuss list, not the Thunderbird-discuss list.

Tell that to the two others who brought TB up first. All I did was
correct their bad/false information.

Post by Paul Schmehl
Everyone gets that you are infatuated with Thunderbird and think it is
perfect.

Infatuated? Rotflmao! You have no clue. TB is loaded with warts, and
I've opened more bug reports and feature requests than I can count on
both hands and feet, most of which are ignored.

As I said before - it just sucks the least.

Post by Paul Schmehl
Enough already.

I agree.

Post by Paul Schmehl
I didn't join this list to be hammered with crap about other email
clients.

Yet you keep hammering us with information about other clients - but at
least you are doing so in context with how perfect Mulberry is.

Kenneth Porter

2017-12-20 01:48:27 UTC

About 2 years ago I erased every artifact of Thunderbird from my
computer and started over again with a fresh install and most settings
at factory default. I experienced more or less the same symptoms.

If you want to poke at it again, one thing to try is to run Ethereal to
monitor the network traffic to see if it reveals where TB gets stuck.
Alas, it's not as useful for diagnosing SSL traffic but it might give a
clue if the problem is before the STARTTLS switches you to an encrypted
connection.

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 20:08:48 UTC

On Tue Dec 19 2017 14:33:13 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Gleason

*So, none of the features it has lacked matter to you.

Or, it has the features (either natively, or via an Addon), you just
aren't aware of it.

? Like the ability to customize visible columns in the message list,
separately for each folder, with a large selection of choices.

??? I've been doing that since.. .forever... natively.

You can also set some folders to 'View > All' and others to 'View >
Unread' (or other filters) on a per folder basis. Been doing this
forever too.

And the ability to filter outgoing messages.

No personal need, but I could if I wanted to, because I use the
FiltaQuilla Addon (lots of powerful filter enhancements).

Recent Thunderbird Daily versions have repaired those lacks though.

The first has been available for as long as I can remember. The second,
for a very long time via the Addon.

*My complaint about plugins is that they tend to loose support in
newer versions,

True for som, but definitely not all Addons. In reality, I have only had
this happen to me (and I use 50+ Addons) rarely, and it is usually fixed
quickly when it does happen.

while plugin authors often aren't interested in updating their
product. Maybe that doesn't happen as often in release versions.

Release version as opposed to... nightly? Don't use nightly if you need
stability.

*My reply address can be different depending on the person I am
writing to.

Handled in TB via an Addon, but does require those messages to be
filtered to specific folders (the Addon does this based on the Folder).

But those reply to addresses need not be tied to a specific account.
For instance, I have one main email address at Fastmail, which is
associated with my fastmail account in The Bat setup. But Fastmail
allows a generous supply of aliases. I can use these aliases in
replies to specific correspondents without The Bat knowing anything
else about them other than they are specified as a return address for
certain correspondents.

This is called 'Identities' in TB, been there for as long as I can remember.

Gleason

2017-12-19 20:31:59 UTC

Tanstaafl,

Post by Tanstaafl
On Tue Dec 19 2017 14:33:13 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Gleason

*So, none of the features it has lacked matter to you.

Or, it has the features (either natively, or via an Addon), you just
aren't aware of it.

Thunderbird evangelist. I do pay close attention to email clients and what they offer.
Have done for a long time.

? Like the ability to customize visible columns in the message list,
separately for each folder, with a large selection of choices.

??? I've been doing that since.. .forever... natively.

Well, not forever, I think. I do distinctly remember those options not being available
a few years ago.

Post by Tanstaafl
You can also set some folders to 'View > All' and others to 'View >
Unread' (or other filters) on a per folder basis. Been doing this
forever too.

And the ability to filter outgoing messages.

No personal need, but I could if I wanted to, because I use the
FiltaQuilla Addon (lots of powerful filter enhancements).

As I say, I prefer the function built in. I personally have had situations where a needed
plugin was no longer compatible. Lightening periodically going in and out of compatibility
for example. It will be back in a while, but in the meantime, I am out of luck. Not
acceptable.

Recent Thunderbird Daily versions have repaired those lacks though.

The first has been available for as long as I can remember. The second,
for a very long time via the Addon.

*My complaint about plugins is that they tend to loose support in
newer versions,

True for som, but definitely not all Addons. In reality, I have only had
this happen to me (and I use 50+ Addons) rarely, and it is usually fixed
quickly when it does happen.

while plugin authors often aren't interested in updating their
product. Maybe that doesn't happen as often in release versions.

Release version as opposed to... nightly? Don't use nightly if you need
stability.

Yes, I use Daily because it has the latest features. Like built in outgoing filters.

*My reply address can be different depending on the person I am
writing to.

Handled in TB via an Addon, but does require those messages to be
filtered to specific folders (the Addon does this based on the Folder).

The Bat has no such requirement. I use server side incoming filters, so messages go
where I want them, and The Bat doesn't care what I want to use for a return address.

But those reply to addresses need not be tied to a specific account.
For instance, I have one main email address at Fastmail, which is
associated with my fastmail account in The Bat setup. But Fastmail
allows a generous supply of aliases. I can use these aliases in
replies to specific correspondents without The Bat knowing anything
else about them other than they are specified as a return address for
certain correspondents.

This is called 'Identities' in TB, been there for as long as I can remember.

No, not quite. Identities are attached to email accounts in most clients. In The Bat,
I simply tell it to use whatever return address I like and there are no unnecessary complications.

--
Gleason

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 21:06:08 UTC

On Tue Dec 19 2017 15:31:59 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Gleason

Post by Gleason
Thunderbird evangelist.

Long time user of the least broken IMAP client I've ever tried (tried
most, including Mulberry). It has many warts, just far fewer than others.

Post by Gleason
I do pay close attention to email clients and what they offer. Have
done for a long time.

Your observations say otherwise...

Post by Gleason
*>> ? Like the ability to customize visible columns in the message list,

Post by Gleason
separately for each folder, with a large selection of choices.

??? I've been doing that since.. .forever... natively.

*Well, not forever, I think. I do distinctly remember those options not
being available a few years ago.

And I do distinctly remember having made extensive customizations to the
message pane for many, many years. At loeast since version 2.0.

So, much, MUCH longer than just a few years my friend.

Post by Gleason
As I say, I prefer the function built in.

Me too... but Addons are one of the main reasons I like Thunderbird - I
can customize it to MY needs/wants.

Post by Gleason
I personally have had situations where a needed plugin was no longer
compatible.

Thats happened to me once or twice, but I soon learned a new and
sometimes better way to do the same thing.

Post by Gleason
Lightening periodically going in and out of compatibility for
example. It will be back in a while, but in the meantime, I am out
of luck. Not acceptable.

The Release version of TB and Lightning has never done this. Of course,
if you play with pre-release versions, you will encounter the occasional
issue like this, but surely you know this.

Post by Gleason
Yes, I use Daily because it has the latest features.

There is your problem. Complaining about OCCASIONAL breakage in a DAILY
build (some might call that ALPHA quality software) is plain asinine.

That said, the reality is Thunderbird rarely gets new features, mostly
you'll just benefit from early bug fixes that are too invasive to
backport to the release version.

Post by Gleason
Like built in outgoing filters.

Limiting yourself to only native/built-in features is missing out on one
of the best things about Mozilla products.

That said, checking when Thunderbird added the ability to customize the
columns in the Message pane revealed that the native ability to filter
on outgoing/Sent messages was added way back in version 38 over 2 years ago.

Post by Gleason
The Bat has no such requirement. I use server side incoming
filters, so messages go where I want them, and The Bat doesn't care
what I want to use for a return address.

The email client isn't thr critical part of this, the SMTP SERVER is. A
properly configured SMTP server (postfix) will not allow you to
impersonate someone else (send from just any address), and there is
nothing 'The Bat' (or any other email client) can do about that.

Post by Gleason
I simply tell it to use whatever return address I like and there are no
unnecessary complications.

Oh - been doing that for many many years using the 'Virtual Identity'
Addon which simply lets me edit the From Header directly on the fly.

Gleason

2017-12-19 21:23:19 UTC

Tanstaafl,

Post by Tanstaafl
On Tue Dec 19 2017 15:31:59 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Gleason

Post by Gleason
Thunderbird evangelist.

Long time user of the least broken IMAP client I've ever tried (tried
most, including Mulberry). It has many warts, just far fewer than others.

Post by Gleason
I do pay close attention to email clients and what they offer. Have
done for a long time.

Your observations say otherwise...

You doubt my veracity?

Post by Gleason
*>> ? Like the ability to customize visible columns in the message list,

Post by Gleason
separately for each folder, with a large selection of choices.

??? I've been doing that since.. .forever... natively.

*Well, not forever, I think. I do distinctly remember those options not
being available a few years ago.

And I do distinctly remember having made extensive customizations to the
message pane for many, many years. At loeast since version 2.0.

The message list columns. Size, date, memo, and folder can be useful in some contexts. Lots of other column headings
are possible and can be useful. Especially if your client allows you to attach a memo to an email,
as The Bat does so easily.

Post by Tanstaafl
So, much, MUCH longer than just a few years my friend.

It is starting to sound like we are failing to communicate.

Post by Gleason
As I say, I prefer the function built in.

Me too... but Addons are one of the main reasons I like Thunderbird - I
can customize it to MY needs/wants.

Post by Gleason
I personally have had situations where a needed plugin was no longer
compatible.

Thats happened to me once or twice, but I soon learned a new and
sometimes better way to do the same thing.

Post by Gleason
Lightening periodically going in and out of compatibility for
example. It will be back in a while, but in the meantime, I am out
of luck. Not acceptable.

The Release version of TB and Lightning has never done this. Of course,
if you play with pre-release versions, you will encounter the occasional
issue like this, but surely you know this.

Post by Gleason
Yes, I use Daily because it has the latest features.

There is your problem. Complaining about OCCASIONAL breakage in a DAILY
build (some might call that ALPHA quality software) is plain asinine.
That said, the reality is Thunderbird rarely gets new features, mostly
you'll just benefit from early bug fixes that are too invasive to
backport to the release version.

Post by Gleason
Like built in outgoing filters.

Limiting yourself to only native/built-in features is missing out on one
of the best things about Mozilla products.
That said, checking when Thunderbird added the ability to customize the
columns in the Message pane revealed that the native ability to filter
on outgoing/Sent messages was added way back in version 38 over 2 years ago.

Message list. My experience with Thunderbird goes back a lot further than that. Yes, I
know outgoing filters outgoing messages has been available for a while. My comment was
that my early experience of Thunderbird was that it lacked features. That has been
remedied in recent *years*. But *I* still don't like the interface. It is subjective.

Post by Gleason
The Bat has no such requirement. I use server side incoming
filters, so messages go where I want them, and The Bat doesn't care
what I want to use for a return address.

And the fastmail smtp server is well aware of my aliases, so no problem.

Post by Gleason
I simply tell it to use whatever return address I like and there are no
unnecessary complications.

Oh - been doing that for many many years using the 'Virtual Identity'
Addon which simply lets me edit the From Header directly on the fly.

Yes, I can do that, but it is preferable that the software do it automatically lest I forget.

--
Gleason

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 21:37:21 UTC

On Tue Dec 19 2017 16:23:19 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Gleason

Post by Gleason
I do pay close attention to email clients and what they offer. Have
done for a long time.

Your observations say otherwise...

You doubt my veracity?

No, your responses do. You plainly state that you 'pay close attention
to mail clients', and that you know that TB hasn't had the ability to do
something that it has been able to do for a very long time - so, what
would you call that?

Post by Tanstaafl
And I do distinctly remember having made extensive customizations to the
message pane for many, many years. At loeast since version 2.0.

*The message list columns. Size, date, memo, and folder can be
useful in some contexts. Lots of other column headings are possible
and can be useful.

Yes, and as I said, I've been customizing all of these in TB as long as
I can remember.

Post by Gleason
Especially if your client allows you to attach a memo to an email, as
The Bat does so easily.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/xnotepp/

Post by Gleason
It is starting to sound like we are failing to communicate.

Pretty sure I'm good, but yeah, I think you may be having some issues there.

Post by Gleason
*Message list.

Sorry, my bad, I meant the Thread Pane, not the Message Pane.

Paul Schmehl

2017-12-19 16:39:54 UTC

I run a small hobby website. I use courier for imap and postfix for smtp.
Thunderbird on Windows can't use the smtp server for reasons that make no
sense at all. (It complains about the certificate. Well, actually, the
error message is completely nonsensical - it says this doesn't work and
quits. I figured out what the problem was by increasing the logging in
postfix and poring through the mail logs.)

On the IMAP side it works fine.

--On December 19, 2017 at 9:49:39 AM -0500 Tanstaafl

Post by Brian Reid
I use Thunderbird now and it is awful, terrible, and bad. I long so much
for Mulberry.

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 19:11:46 UTC

I'm on th list, please don't CC me directly (just use Reply to List)...

On Tue Dec 19 2017 11:39:54 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Paul

Post by Paul Schmehl
I run a small hobby website. I use courier for imap and postfix for smtp.

I migrated from the god awful slow poke courier over 10 years ago
(dovecot rocks).

Post by Paul Schmehl
Thunderbird on Windows can't use the smtp server for reasons that make no
sense at all. (It complains about the certificate. Well, actually, the
error message is completely nonsensical - it says this doesn't work and
quits. I figured out what the problem was by increasing the logging in
postfix and poring through the mail logs.)

Then fix your cert. I've been using TB with postfix for well over 10
years with zarro problems.

Post by Paul Schmehl
On the IMAP side it works fine.

It would work much better with dovecot.

Paul Schmehl

2017-12-19 19:42:33 UTC

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the cert. In fact, it works fine in
Thunderbird on the Mac. It's only the Thunderbird Windows client that gags.
It's likely a Windows-related problem, not Thunderbird, but Thunderbird's
error message is less than helpful.

--On December 19, 2017 at 2:11:46 PM -0500 Tanstaafl

Post by Tanstaafl
I'm on th list, please don't CC me directly (just use Reply to List)...
On Tue Dec 19 2017 11:39:54 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Paul

Post by Paul Schmehl
I run a small hobby website. I use courier for imap and postfix for smtp.

I migrated from the god awful slow poke courier over 10 years ago
(dovecot rocks).

Post by Paul Schmehl
Thunderbird on Windows can't use the smtp server for reasons that make
no sense at all. (It complains about the certificate. Well, actually,
the error message is completely nonsensical - it says this doesn't work
and quits. I figured out what the problem was by increasing the logging
in postfix and poring through the mail logs.)

Then fix your cert. I've been using TB with postfix for well over 10
years with zarro problems.

Post by Paul Schmehl
On the IMAP side it works fine.

It would work much better with dovecot.

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 20:14:44 UTC

Repeat: PLEASE DO NOT CC ME DIRECTLY.

I'm on the list. Use Reply To List (or maybe Mulberry doesn't support
proper List Reply functionality - big strike against it in my book).

On Tue Dec 19 2017 14:42:33 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Paul

Post by Paul Schmehl
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the cert.

Except that it doesn't work correctly... gotcha...

Post by Paul Schmehl
In fact, it works fine in Thunderbird on the Mac. It's only the
Thunderbird Windows client that gags. It's likely a Windows-related
problem, not Thunderbird, but Thunderbird's error message is less
than helpful.

Again - if it doesn't work with Thunderbird on Windows, there is
SOMETHING wrong with it. I've been using postfix on my personal server
and did for a long time on our corp server), and only one time had a
cert problem, but it was because the cert I got from the provider
chained it wrong and I had to fix it.

But by all means, ignore that possibility and rant against/blame
Thunderbird/Windows if it makes you feel better.

Kenneth Porter

2017-12-18 22:49:35 UTC

It is getting harder to find anything new. I see this one is imap only.

I only use IMAP, so that's not a problem for me. I was looking through
the changelog and found it handles multiple accounts by running multiple
instances. Which would be awkward if you move mail between accounts a
lot. Not something I normally do. But I do connect to lots of accounts.
I suppose it's like having many PuTTY sessions open to different ssh
servers. The Windows aggregation of sessions under one taskbar icon
would be handy for this.

m***@crop.inbox5.com

2017-12-18 21:19:25 UTC

Paul,
Try Fastmail. https://www.fastmail.com Built for IMAP early 2000s. Australian -
Jeremy and Rob (?) started it and still run it. Costs a small bit of money now, but
it is well built and has longevity. And, if you ever want to leave, there's a
handy zip file action to export your emails.
MU

--On 12/13/17 2:17 PM -0600 ***@tx.rr.com wrote:

I have a log file of errors generated by Mulberry when trying to connect to,
retrieve from and move emails from my ISP. They use IncrediMail, which has to
be the worst IMAP server on the planet. It literally crashes Mulberry when you
get over 25 emails in your inbox.

I'm in the process of moving over to gmail, because my ISP email is virtually
unusable. I've been using Mulberry for years now, and no IMAP server I've ever
used has been so indescribably horrible.

Paul Schmehl, Retired
As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions
are my own and not those of my employer.
*******************************************
"It is as useless to argue with those who have
renounced the use of reason as to administer
medication to the dead." Thomas Jefferson
"There are some ideas so wrong that only a very
intelligent person could believe in them." George Orwell

Kenneth Porter

2017-12-18 21:51:15 UTC

Try Fastmail.https://www.fastmail.com Built for IMAP early 2000s.

I think we're talking about three different things: Clients, servers,
and server programs.

Mulberry is a client, as is Thunderbird and Trojitá. I normally run
Mulberry and Thunderbird side-by-side to the same server, using
Thunderbird for HTML email and Mulberry for older text-only mailing
lists like this.

Incredimail, Gmail, and FastMail are servers, as are the services run by
ISPs.

I'm using Dovecot, a server program, on my Linux servers to host my own
email. That's a hairball to manage, and you have to know about a lot of
different cooperating programs to make that work. For most people, I,
too, would recommend FastMail. They're doing what I do but on a
commercial basis.

m***@crop.inbox5.com

2017-12-19 05:12:38 UTC

Agree. Mulberry (client) works well with FastMail (server).

I thought he was going over to Gmail to use as an IMAP server. I recommend FastMail
over Gmail. But equally I wasn't sure if he wanted to host his own email (#3) as
you are doing.
MU

Try Fastmail.https://www.fastmail.com Built for IMAP early 2000s.

I think we're talking about three different things: Clients, servers, and
server programs.

Mulberry is a client, as is Thunderbird and Trojitá. I normally run Mulberry
and Thunderbird side-by-side to the same server, using Thunderbird for HTML
email and Mulberry for older text-only mailing lists like this.

Incredimail, Gmail, and FastMail are servers, as are the services run by ISPs.

I'm using Dovecot, a server program, on my Linux servers to host my own email.
That's a hairball to manage, and you have to know about a lot of different
cooperating programs to make that work. For most people, I, too, would
recommend FastMail. They're doing what I do but on a commercial basis.

Paul Schmehl

2017-12-18 22:26:10 UTC

I'll switch from Mulberry when it no longer works. Right now, it works
fine. No other MUA even comes close, and I really don't care if I'm the odd
man out.

Post by m***@crop.inbox5.com
Paul,
Try Fastmail. https://www.fastmail.com Built for IMAP early 2000s.
Australian - Jeremy and Rob (?) started it and still run it. Costs a
small bit of money now, but it is well built and has longevity. And, if
you ever want to leave, there's a handy zip file action to export your
emails.
MU
I have a log file of errors generated by Mulberry when trying to
connect to, retrieve from and move emails from my ISP. They use
IncrediMail, which has to be the worst IMAP server on the planet. It
literally crashes Mulberry when you get over 25 emails in your inbox.
I'm in the process of moving over to gmail, because my ISP email is
virtually unusable. I've been using Mulberry for years now, and no
IMAP server I've ever used has been so indescribably horrible.
Paul Schmehl, Retired
As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions
are my own and not those of my employer.
*******************************************
"It is as useless to argue with those who have
renounced the use of reason as to administer
medication to the dead." Thomas Jefferson
"There are some ideas so wrong that only a very
intelligent person could believe in them." George Orwell

Bernie Maier

2017-12-19 11:29:01 UTC

Post by m***@crop.inbox5.com

Post by m***@crop.inbox5.com
I have a log file of errors generated by Mulberry when trying to connect to,
retrieve from and move emails from my ISP. They use IncrediMail, which has
to be the worst IMAP server on the planet. It literally crashes Mulberry
when you get over 25 emails in your inbox.
I'm in the process of moving over to gmail, because my ISP email is
virtually unusable. I've been using Mulberry for years now, and no IMAP
server I've ever used has been so indescribably horrible.

Wow. There's a worse IMAP server than Gmail? Something that you'd use Gmail as
an IMAP server in preference to? Or do you mean just going the whole hog to
web mail rather than using a dedicated email client? The reason I ask is that
Gmail's IMAP conformance is legendarily bad. I've actually given up using
Mulberry for my work email, because all my work accounts (at my employer and I
have customer-hosted accounts too) are all hosted on Gmail.

That said, I guess Gmail doesn't crash Mulberry (often, it can depend on the
attachments). But even without crashing, there are things I routinely do as
part of my personal email workflow that are completely broken by Gmail's IMAP
implementation (e.g. what appears to me to be Gmail's non-deterministic
assignment of UIDs in bulk copy / move operations).

If you want to your IMAP email hosted externally, I'd recommend a paid service
with a reputation for IMAP. I also am a happy FastMail customer for many years
now. They do suffer increasingly from DDOS attacks (what service provider
doesn't?), but I've never had any severe outages.

If you want free and externally hosted IMAP, there may still be some niche
providers out there.

If you just want to migrate to web mail, sure go to Gmail.

Whatever you do, getting off your ISP's email service is probably a smart
move. It saves hassle if you ever change ISPs.

I'd love to be one of the few still working on Mulberry, but unfortunately I
have to little time after work and my other existing side-projects. And
Mulberry is a non-trivial thing to tackle. And I don't particularly like any
of the cross-platform GUI options that would be needed to modernise Mulberry.

Post by m***@crop.inbox5.com
Things I need for my work flow include multiple identities and multiple
servers.

Yes, that's the killer Mulberry feature that I have never seen any other
client do at all well.

It is getting harder to find anything new. I see this one is imap only.

Moving between multiple accounts is core to the way I use email. So Trojitá
is out for me, even if it did run on macOS. Also, it's unclear whether it
attempts to sync the world on initial connection to a new IMAP server, like a
lot of clients want to do. At least it claims to be fast about it if it does.

The thing with building / maintaining an email client these days is that email
is increasingly becoming a niche technology. Still a very big niche, but lots
of the stuff I used to do via email has (sadly) been replaced by other
technologies. So it's a big ask to work on an email client these days.

Steve Burling

2017-12-19 12:06:26 UTC

Post by Bernie Maier
Yes, that's the killer Mulberry feature that I have never seen any
other client do at all well.

For macOS, take a look at MailMate <https://freron.com>. It does
multiple accounts/identities well (at least, it works well for *me*), is
actively being developed, and has a very responsive developer. And works
just fine with Gmail accounts.

-- Steve

Brian Reid

2017-12-19 14:43:12 UTC

Wow. I hadn't heard of MailMate, but I'm going to buy it soon and try it out.
(I know he offers a free trial, but paying for a trial helps reward people who
write software that matters to me).

In my opinion, the primary reason why Mulberry is so wonderful is that it is
essentially the work of one person; that is a formula for top quality in any
software provided that the one person is capable. MailMate is the work of one
person.

This could end up being my best Christmas present in years.

Post by Bernie Maier
Yes, that's the killer Mulberry feature that I have never seen any other
client do at all well.
For macOS, take a look at MailMate https://freron.com. It does multiple
accounts/identities well (at least, it works well for /me/), is actively being
developed, and has a very responsive developer. And works just fine with Gmail
accounts.
-- Steve

Steven Frysinger

2017-12-19 14:49:54 UTC

For me the winning Mulberry feature(besides multi ID/server) is that I can create a group by pasting a list of addresses, without creating individual contacts. Last I checked, Mulberry was alone with this feature, and as a professor with many classes I use it all the time. Some clients let you paste into a group, but then automatically create contacts - dumb! I also like having nested groups, though I use that leas often.
Steve

------------------------------------
Sent from the carpet of the sun.

Post by Brian Reid
Wow. I hadn't heard of MailMate, but I'm going to buy it soon and try it out.
(I know he offers a free trial, but paying for a trial helps reward people who write software that matters to me).
In my opinion, the primary reason why Mulberry is so wonderful is that it is essentially the work of one person; that is a formula for top quality in any software provided that the one person is capable. MailMate is the work of one person.
This could end up being my best Christmas present in years.

Yes, that's the killer Mulberry feature that I have never seen any other client do at all well.
For macOS, take a look at MailMate https://freron.com. It does multiple accounts/identities well (at least, it works well for me), is actively being developed, and has a very responsive developer. And works just fine with Gmail accounts.
-- Steve

Chaim Kram

2017-12-19 17:53:43 UTC

+1 for [MailMate](https://freron.com) â I just bought a copy for
myself a couple of weeks ago. Bit of a learning curve for its more
advanced features, but if youâre technical you can really sink your
teeth into it. As an app itâs very stable and robust.

p.s. Hi Steve!

--
Chaim Kram

Post by Steve Burling

Post by Bernie Maier
Yes, that's the killer Mulberry feature that I have never seen any
other client do at all well.

For macOS, take a look at MailMate <https://freron.com>. It does
multiple accounts/identities well (at least, it works well for *me*),
is actively being developed, and has a very responsive developer. And
works just fine with Gmail accounts.
-- Steve

Paul Schmehl

2017-12-19 18:01:36 UTC

I just took a look at it. I didn't see identities even mentioned in the
manual. Does it have the ability to tie an identity to a specific account
so that, when you compose an email using that account, it automatically
assumes that identity?

+1 for MailMate — I just bought a copy for myself a couple of weeks
ago. Bit of a learning curve for its more advanced features, but if
you’re technical you can really sink your teeth into it. As an app
it’s very stable and robust.
p.s. Hi Steve!
--
Chaim Kram
Yes, that's the killer Mulberry feature that I have never seen any other
client do at all well.
For macOS, take a look at MailMate https://freron.com. It does multiple
accounts/identities well (at least, it works well for me), is actively
being developed, and has a very responsive developer. And works just fine
with Gmail accounts.
-- Steve

Kenneth Porter

2017-12-19 18:08:35 UTC

Post by Paul Schmehl
I just took a look at it. I didn't see identities even mentioned in
the manual. Does it have the ability to tie an identity to a specific
account so that, when you compose an email using that account, it
automatically assumes that identity?

Even better, tying an identity to a folder and its subfolders. I have
several aliases on my server that feed into one account and they filter
into a folder hierarchy.

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 19:23:54 UTC

On Tue Dec 19 2017 13:08:35 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Kenneth

Post by Kenneth Porter
Even better, tying an identity to a folder and its subfolders. I have
several aliases on my server that feed into one account and they filter
into a folder hierarchy.

Nice Addon for TB does precisely this...

Kenneth Porter

2017-12-19 20:58:19 UTC

--On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 2:23 PM -0500 Tanstaafl

Post by Tanstaafl
On Tue Dec 19 2017 13:08:35 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Kenneth

Post by Kenneth Porter
Even better, tying an identity to a folder and its subfolders. I have
several aliases on my server that feed into one account and they filter
into a folder hierarchy.

Nice Addon for TB does precisely this...

And that addon is?...

Every time I search for an addon, I find the likely candidates are no
longer compatible with the current version. As if the author stopped using
Thunderbird so they no longer need their own addon.

Gleason

2017-12-19 21:09:01 UTC

Kenneth,

Post by Kenneth Porter
--On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 2:23 PM -0500 Tanstaafl

Post by Tanstaafl
On Tue Dec 19 2017 13:08:35 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Kenneth

Post by Kenneth Porter
Even better, tying an identity to a folder and its subfolders. I have
several aliases on my server that feed into one account and they filter
into a folder hierarchy.

Nice Addon for TB does precisely this...

And that addon is?...
Every time I search for an addon, I find the likely candidates are no
longer compatible with the current version. As if the author stopped using
Thunderbird so they no longer need their own addon.

Oh, yes.

--
Gleason

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 21:15:58 UTC

On Tue Dec 19 2017 16:09:01 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Gleason

Post by Kenneth Porter
Every time I search for an addon, I find the likely candidates are no
longer compatible with the current version. As if the author stopped using
Thunderbird so they no longer need their own addon.

Oh, yes.

Yeah, Gleason, just like Mulberry itself - the entire Client - is now
un-maintained.

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 21:13:37 UTC

On Tue Dec 19 2017 15:58:19 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Kenneth

Post by Kenneth Porter
--On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 2:23 PM -0500 Tanstaafl

Post by Tanstaafl
On Tue Dec 19 2017 13:08:35 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Kenneth

Post by Kenneth Porter
Even better, tying an identity to a folder and its subfolders. I
have several aliases on my server that feed into one account and
they filter into a folder hierarchy.

Nice Addon for TB does precisely this...

And that addon is?...

Folder Account - but yeah, I see it is likely no longer maintained:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/folder-account/

I played with it a while back, but never found a real use for it.

Post by Kenneth Porter
Every time I search for an addon, I find the likely candidates are no
longer compatible with the current version. As if the author
stopped using Thunderbird so they no longer need their own addon.

Or they just no longer had the time...

This is definitely one of the downsides to the Addon eco-system, but
losing a critical Addon has only happened a few times to me (and I use a
lot of Addons).

Alas, I think it may start happening more now that Firefox has abandoned
the XUL Addon system, which Thunderbird relies on.

Chaim Kram

2017-12-19 18:11:57 UTC

Iâm still figuring all that out. MailMate algorithmically chooses the
identity and the signature that is appropriate for the message, based on
a number of factors. Theoretically, it âlearnsâ as it goes along (it
does seem to be quite good at it now). You can also of course easily
override this manually, which trains it further. Read its help under
âComposeâ.

--
Chaim Kram

Post by Paul Schmehl
--On December 19, 2017 at 7:53:43 PM +0200 Chaim Kram

+1 for MailMate â I just bought a copy for myself a couple of weeks
ago. Bit of a learning curve for its more advanced features, but if
youâre technical you can really sink your teeth into it. As an app
itâs very stable and robust.
p.s. Hi Steve!
--
Chaim Kram
Yes, that's the killer Mulberry feature that I have never seen any other
client do at all well.
For macOS, take a look at MailMate https://freron.com. It does multiple
accounts/identities well (at least, it works well for me), is
actively
being developed, and has a very responsive developer. And works just fine
with Gmail accounts.
-- Steve

Paul Schmehl

2017-12-19 16:52:56 UTC

I don't have much trouble with Gmail. My problem is that I have multiple
accounts. Five Gmail accounts, one work account (that retirees are allowed
to keep), the hobby site account and my ISP account. So I have to have a
capable MUA that handles those accounts well and handled identities,
because each account has its own identity.

The ISP uses InrediMail, and it is beyond horrible. It makes Gmail look
stellar.

--On December 19, 2017 at 10:29:01 PM +1100 Bernie Maier

Post by Bernie Maier

Post by Paul Schmehl
I have a log file of errors generated by Mulberry when trying to connect
to, retrieve from and move emails from my ISP. They use IncrediMail,
which has to be the worst IMAP server on the planet. It literally
crashes Mulberry when you get over 25 emails in your inbox.
I'm in the process of moving over to gmail, because my ISP email is
virtually unusable. I've been using Mulberry for years now, and no IMAP
server I've ever used has been so indescribably horrible.

Wow. There's a worse IMAP server than Gmail? Something that you'd use
Gmail as an IMAP server in preference to? Or do you mean just going the
whole hog to web mail rather than using a dedicated email client? The
reason I ask is that Gmail's IMAP conformance is legendarily bad. I've
actually given up using Mulberry for my work email, because all my work
accounts (at my employer and I have customer-hosted accounts too) are all
hosted on Gmail.
That said, I guess Gmail doesn't crash Mulberry (often, it can depend on
the attachments). But even without crashing, there are things I routinely
do as part of my personal email workflow that are completely broken by
Gmail's IMAP implementation (e.g. what appears to me to be Gmail's
non-deterministic assignment of UIDs in bulk copy / move operations).
If you want to your IMAP email hosted externally, I'd recommend a paid
service with a reputation for IMAP. I also am a happy FastMail customer
for many years now. They do suffer increasingly from DDOS attacks (what
service provider doesn't?), but I've never had any severe outages.
If you want free and externally hosted IMAP, there may still be some
niche providers out there.
If you just want to migrate to web mail, sure go to Gmail.
Whatever you do, getting off your ISP's email service is probably a smart
move. It saves hassle if you ever change ISPs.
I'd love to be one of the few still working on Mulberry, but
unfortunately I have to little time after work and my other existing
side-projects. And Mulberry is a non-trivial thing to tackle. And I don't
particularly like any of the cross-platform GUI options that would be
needed to modernise Mulberry.

Post by Paul Schmehl
Things I need for my work flow include multiple identities and multiple
servers.

Yes, that's the killer Mulberry feature that I have never seen any other
client do at all well.

Post by Paul Schmehl

It is getting harder to find anything new. I see this one is imap only.

Moving between multiple accounts is core to the way I use email. So
Trojitá is out for me, even if it did run on macOS. Also, it's unclear
whether it attempts to sync the world on initial connection to a new IMAP
server, like a lot of clients want to do. At least it claims to be fast
about it if it does.
The thing with building / maintaining an email client these days is that
email is increasingly becoming a niche technology. Still a very big
niche, but lots of the stuff I used to do via email has (sadly) been
replaced by other technologies. So it's a big ask to work on an email
client these days.

Tanstaafl

2017-12-19 19:12:36 UTC

On Tue Dec 19 2017 11:52:56 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time), Paul

Post by Paul Schmehl
I don't have much trouble with Gmail. My problem is that I have multiple
accounts. Five Gmail accounts, one work account (that retirees are allowed
to keep), the hobby site account and my ISP account. So I have to have a
capable MUA that handles those accounts well and handled identities,
because each account has its own identity.

Thunderbirds Identity support is stellar.

John C Klensin

2017-12-19 15:55:11 UTC